Great show! Happy to see more advocates out there for involved dads. You also get random praise from strangers for traveling or commuting with kids as a solo dad. It’s nice!
Hi Michael! Many ambitious professionals work more than 40 hours a week, and many also have jobs that require inflexible hours or extensive travel. My wife is one of them. In contrast I work a bit less than 40 hours, rarely travel, and fit my work hours around the needs of my kids rather than the other way around.
I guess i assumed the phrase meant something closer to going part time. The description in the episode is much closer to just having a job with flexible hours. “My profession takes a backseat” does not, to me, imply, “I work full time”. Similar to how people sometimes say “quiet quitting” when they mean “doing exactly your job”.
“Leaning out” implies withdrawing or not really being up to usual expectations at work, but a 40 hour week where you get to spend the rest of your time with your kids is basically the American Dream and should be par, not “leaning out”. It comes up briefly in the episode, but it seems really unfortunate that working very long hours should be the norm, such that working 40 hours is considered not being fully engaged with your career.
I should also say I really enjoyed the episode and found your descriptions insightful and helpful for my own life. It is nice to hear someone talk frankly about the decisions they’ve made to get the life they want.
I find I keep thinking about this. I guess I’m not really sure what the alternative is. Someone has to pick the kids up from school, help them with homework, take care of them when they’re sick, etc. How would your life be different (regarding the kids) if you weren’t leaning out? Would you ask the nanny or a family member to do more, or would your wife have to lean out instead?
Yes, exactly. If I took a job with a more demanding schedule, I wouldn't be able to do as much child care and housework. So either my wife would need to cut back her hours and do "her share" (which would mean she'd earn less and perhaps advance more slowly in her career) or else we'd have to get more help from family or a nanny (which would mean our kids wouldn't see us less).
I think either of these options could entail a lot more stress. In the 50/50 marriage case we'd be constantly negotiating over who was going to take a day off for a sick kid, school closure, doctor's appointment, etc. If we recruited more help, we'd have to spend a lot of time coordinating to make sure we and our care-givers are all on the same page about school lunches, soccer practice times, etc. Having me be the default person for all this stuff means I can make sure everything happens (and not worry too much about it impairing my job performance) while my wife can focus on her job and mostly not worry about it.
I mean I'm not wedded to the terminology here. If you want to say that my wife is leaning in and I'm "leaning neutral" or something that's fine with me. The point is that ambitious people often marry other ambitious people, which can lead to problems when they have kids and neither parent wants to downshift their careers. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with people who choose less demanding careers—quite the contrary!
Yes, from your description, it really sounds like one or both spouses “leaning out” is a necessity if one has kids, unless you’re able and willing to outsource a lot of evening and extraordinary care. It’s not news that people make trade-offs between career and family, but it still seems somehow unfortunate…
Great show! Happy to see more advocates out there for involved dads. You also get random praise from strangers for traveling or commuting with kids as a solo dad. It’s nice!
“Leaning out” means relying on a nanny and a family member for childcare and still working 40 hours/week? WTF?
Hi Michael! Many ambitious professionals work more than 40 hours a week, and many also have jobs that require inflexible hours or extensive travel. My wife is one of them. In contrast I work a bit less than 40 hours, rarely travel, and fit my work hours around the needs of my kids rather than the other way around.
I guess i assumed the phrase meant something closer to going part time. The description in the episode is much closer to just having a job with flexible hours. “My profession takes a backseat” does not, to me, imply, “I work full time”. Similar to how people sometimes say “quiet quitting” when they mean “doing exactly your job”.
“Leaning out” implies withdrawing or not really being up to usual expectations at work, but a 40 hour week where you get to spend the rest of your time with your kids is basically the American Dream and should be par, not “leaning out”. It comes up briefly in the episode, but it seems really unfortunate that working very long hours should be the norm, such that working 40 hours is considered not being fully engaged with your career.
I should also say I really enjoyed the episode and found your descriptions insightful and helpful for my own life. It is nice to hear someone talk frankly about the decisions they’ve made to get the life they want.
I find I keep thinking about this. I guess I’m not really sure what the alternative is. Someone has to pick the kids up from school, help them with homework, take care of them when they’re sick, etc. How would your life be different (regarding the kids) if you weren’t leaning out? Would you ask the nanny or a family member to do more, or would your wife have to lean out instead?
Yes, exactly. If I took a job with a more demanding schedule, I wouldn't be able to do as much child care and housework. So either my wife would need to cut back her hours and do "her share" (which would mean she'd earn less and perhaps advance more slowly in her career) or else we'd have to get more help from family or a nanny (which would mean our kids wouldn't see us less).
I think either of these options could entail a lot more stress. In the 50/50 marriage case we'd be constantly negotiating over who was going to take a day off for a sick kid, school closure, doctor's appointment, etc. If we recruited more help, we'd have to spend a lot of time coordinating to make sure we and our care-givers are all on the same page about school lunches, soccer practice times, etc. Having me be the default person for all this stuff means I can make sure everything happens (and not worry too much about it impairing my job performance) while my wife can focus on her job and mostly not worry about it.
I mean I'm not wedded to the terminology here. If you want to say that my wife is leaning in and I'm "leaning neutral" or something that's fine with me. The point is that ambitious people often marry other ambitious people, which can lead to problems when they have kids and neither parent wants to downshift their careers. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with people who choose less demanding careers—quite the contrary!
Yes, from your description, it really sounds like one or both spouses “leaning out” is a necessity if one has kids, unless you’re able and willing to outsource a lot of evening and extraordinary care. It’s not news that people make trade-offs between career and family, but it still seems somehow unfortunate…
Thanks for your thoughtful reply!
Will the podcast return?
Same question- what happened to the podcast?
Kids in Josh’s future????